Wednesday, June 10, 2009

Sutherland's Utah Prosperity Forum: Is SB81 Good for Utah Business and Culture?

I attended Sutherland's forum on SB 81. There were four panelists: Representative Chris Herrod, Senator Luz Robles, Representative Stephen Sandstrom, and Mrs. Dee Rowland of the Catholic Diocese. Each was given time for a presentation/speech, and then it was opened to questions from the attendees. The crowd had a bit of an us/them feel to it, with a strong Latino contingent as well as some outspoken Minutemen, one of whom was kicked out towards the end for being a bit too outspoken.

Senator Herrod spoke first, and, with what was a recurring theme from the pro-SB81 side, began by defending himself against attacks of being racist. His wife is a legal immigrant from the Ukraine, and his business partner is a legal immigrant from Africa. His support for bills like SB81 comes from a strong belief that illegal immigration makes it much harder for legal immigrants to come to America. He thinks it is unfair and immoral that his business partner's wife and family are still waiting in a very dangerous country in Africa because he has chosen to follow the law with their immigration process while millions of illegal immigrants stream into the country. In effect, his argument was that allowing illegal immigration discriminates against legal immigrants.

If the first part of Sen. Herrod's speech dealt with the moral theory behind his stance, the second part dealt with cold hard facts. He had an interesting slide presentation which included graphs showing the country of origin for immigrants in 1970 vs. 2000. In 1970 the mix was very even, with no country supplying significantly more than another. However, by 2000 that had changed substantially, with Mexico now far and away the biggest source of immigration. He said that this scenario lessens the "melting pot" of the US.

Also discussed was the fact that illegal immigration harms the working poor by taking away jobs and depressing wage levels. The representative said that if it were high earners immigrating illegally and competing for jobs with doctors and lawyers, there would be far more people in favor of measures like SB81. Instead, the illegal immigrants are generally poor, and statistically have more children than the average population. This demographic means illegal immigrants are a drain on state services like education.

Next up was Senator Robles. She began by saying this country was founded on immigration. She went on to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem, but that it can only be addressed at the federal level. She did, however, point out three main issues in need of fixing:

1) The borders need to be secured
2) There is a demand for labor that these immigrants provide.
3) What to do with the 12 million illegal immigrants already here?

Senator Robles did not expand much on the first point other than to state it was a security issue. The second point was quite interesting because she used it to refute what Representative Herrod had said about illegal immigrant doctors. Basically, the working poor labor is what is demanded, so that is what we are getting. The third point was expounded upon mainly by noting that many of these illegal immigrants are "mixed status" families, which means that while the parents may not be citizens, their children are. Sen. Robles is vehemently opposed to forcing US citizens to leave the country simply because their parents are not citizens.

The third speaker was Representative Stephen Sandstrom. He too found it necessary to defend himself against attacks of being a racist. Because of time constraints he was forced to cut his speech short, but the gist of my notes is that he dwelt on how SB81 simply forces the state of Utah to follow federal law currently on the books. By not following these laws, it creates a disadvantage to companies that do not hire illegal immigrants. For this reason he is in favor of the provision in SB81 which calls for companies with public contracts to use an e-verify system so as not to hire illegal immigrants.

Mrs. Dee Rowland was the final speaker. I unfortunately was quite disappointed in her speech. When not labeling her opponents racists, she was calling them Nazis. And all this after prefacing her remarks with a call for civility and finding common ground. But at least she was quite nice in how she presented it.

Now came the public question portion. There wasn't an awful lot of time at this point, which frustrated many who wanted to ask questions, myself included. I felt that not enough time was spent on the specific provisions of SB81 and what the expected results of the bill would be, as well as why each piece was opposed or supported.

The question I was unable to ask was, one of the provisions of the bill is that local law enforcement would now be investigating the immigration status of the people they came into contact with. What is unclear to me is if they will be investigating everyone, or just people already arrested for other crimes. This seems important to me because for one thing law enforcement already does that with other crimes, and also because it would seem that law abiding illegal immigrants have nothing to fear. It's not as though police are barging into homes looking to deport people; rather, if a crime is committed by an illegal immigrant, law enforcement should be aware of it. Perhaps I misunderstand the provision, and for this reason I had hoped to ask the question.

The discussion also brought to my mind a scenario which I think illustrates the complexity of illegal immigration. At one time I worked in an apartment maintenance crew in Salt Lake City. There were a number of Latinos in the crew; some here legally, and some not. Because I spoke Spanish, we were able to communicate and became good friends. The Latinos in the crew were very hardworking, reliable, and honest. In short, they were perfect employees. On the other hand, I watched as the non-Latinos on the crew came and went as they simply stopped showing up for work or were caught stealing. They were unreliable, dishonest, and difficult to manage. Almost to a man they were the complete opposite of their Latino counterparts.

For this reason I think a crackdown on illegal immigration would be harmful to Utah business and society. Losing men and workers of my friends' caliber would be a great loss.

However, our employer liked them not only because of their innate loyalty, but because of a forced loyalty. They did not speak English and so had few employment options other than what their family or friend connections could supply. Instead of paying them as employees, they were paid as independent contractors. A practice which freed the employer from paying payroll taxes and instead transferred that burden to the worker. A burden which, since the illegal immigrants had faulty paperwork, they didn't ever have to pay because they're not filing taxes with someone else's social security number. Of course, eventually that someone else will be tracked down by the state and federal tax collectors and accused of not declaring all that additional income. Also worthy of noting is that these men were paid $9 an hour and happy to get it. This is not anywhere near a real living wage, and I often wondered if the depressed wage level these workers created contributed to the quality (or lack thereof) of the non-Latino workers.

It is a very complicated issue. I applaud the Sutherland Institute for providing a venue for this discussion, and the panelists for spending time to discuss and defend their views.

3 comments:

Anonymous said...

From Cameron:

"The question I was unable to ask was, one of the provisions of the bill is that local law enforcement would now be investigating the immigration status of the people they came into contact with."

My answer, Cameron, is that the police will NOT be investigating people they come in contact with. Only when a crime is committed will the police become involved. Of course, the real question is: HOW DO THE POLICE KNOW WHO IS ILLEGAL AND COMMITTING IDENTITY THEFT, DOCUMENT FRAUD, JOB THEFT (CERTAINLY A CRIME, BOTH FEDERAL AND STATE), not to mention tax fraud and id theft driven welfare fraud? All these are crimes that the vast majority of illegal aliens commit every day just in order to work.

Another part of your post: "What is unclear to me is if they will be investigating everyone, or just people already arrested for other crimes."

There is nothing in SB81 which would enable police to do this.

More: "This seems important to me because for one thing law enforcement already does that with other crimes, and also because it would seem that law abiding illegal immigrants have nothing to fear."

Let me be very clear: THER IS NO SUCH THING AS A "LAW-ABIDING" ILLEGAL ALIEN!!!!!!!!!! In contradiction to what the LA RAZA AND MEXICAN LIVING ABROAD MEMBER Luz Robles said, overstaying a visa and crossing the border illegally ARE CRIMES, JUST NOT FELONIES.

SO IN ORDER FOR AN ILLEGAL ALIEN TO BE HERE, TO WORK, OR TO APPLY FOR ANY STATE OR FEDERAL BENEFIT, THEY WOULD HAVE HAD TO COMMIT AT LEAST 3 DIFFERENT CRIMES, ALL INVOLVING ID THEFT OF SOME SORT. So the idea that illegal aliens are in the least "law abiding" is a moronic fiction indulged in and disseminated by the racemongers who aggrandize the Hispanic population at the expense of the rule of law and the rest of us who are not illegal. Get a grip!!!! What part of i.d. theft do you not grasp????



Furthermore: "It's not as though police are barging into homes looking to deport people; rather, if a crime is committed by an illegal immigrant, law enforcement should be aware of it. Perhaps I misunderstand the provision, and for this reason I had hoped to ask the question."

This is correct, you misunderstand the law. In general SB81 is a shadow of the tougher laws that have been passed in Oklahoma, Arizona, Missourri and other states. Utah's domination by the Mormon Church has assured that their fetish with the Lamanites and so-called prophecy will perpetuate Utah and SLC as a sanctuary state, a magnet for illegal aliens, and an aider and abbetor of the organized crime cartels which are responsible for almost any illegal alien who has been smuggled across the border.

Every time a business gives and illegal alien a job, every time the LDS or Catholick Churces provide a rent subsidy, food, medical care, a mission, or a religious assignment, every time the state or federal government gives a benefit to an illegal alien, no matter how small or of what nature, the result is a financial boost to the drug and human trafficking cartels which are wreaking havoc to the tune of thousands a year in Mexico. LET THERE BE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THIS!!!!

So regardless of what good the La Raza/Mexicans Living Abroad member Luz Robles intends, the end result is the reinforcement of the power of organized crime and the advancement of their ability to kill, maim and exploit the illegal aliens.

This cannot be denied.

Cameron said...

Anon,

A word of advice. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, particularly when it comes to bringing fence sitters like myself to your cause.

Speaking of fence sitting, I'm not sure you read all of the post. I recognize the problems created by illegal immigration, including all you list here. I'm trying to determine if laws like SB 81 are the best way to solve those problems.

For instance, opponents of SB81's police provision claim it will create a climate of fear amongst the Latino community. This fear will result in fewer crimes being reported. I think we can all agree that this would be bad.

However, if only arrested persons' immigration status is investigated, then the community at large would seem to have no reason to fear.

That is the point I had hoped would get clarified at the panel. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if your comment makes it any clearer to me.

You do make a good point though. There are very nasty criminal elements that thrive off of illegal immigration. But how does SB81 stop those elements? It may keep illegal immigration at a minimum in Utah, but I don't think it will effect it as a whole. In that regard, Senator Robles is correct in saying that it is a problem that requires a federal solution.

Like I said, it is a very complicated issue. And I frankly don't know where I stand at this point.

Taylor.A.Smith said...

I find it interesting that we will be celebrating the greatest act of illegal immigration in Utah History in a couple of weeks- after all, on July 24, 1847 Utah was still part of Mexico, and Brigham and the Saints didn’t have permission to be here…